Curse

Mercury Angel · Mar 06, 2006, 10:18 PM // 22:18

As things are presently, PvE is a cakewalk with a decent team. The summation of the bulk of PvE content is -
- Control Aggro
- Deal damage

That's about it. Shutdown is minimally needed, though it can make things a lot easier.

Escort quests are rare, and while they can be difficult, considering the AI implemented for NPC player allies, I do NOT suggest more escort quests.

My suggestion (a collaborative idea with IRC channel members) is filling the Melandru, Lyssa, and Dwayna slots remaining for special Elite dungeons; very challenging. Also, optional, so that it doesn't alienate more casual players from the game.

Aspects of a challenging dungeon:

Currently, a huge part of high-end areas is simply swarming a party with higher than normal level monsters en masse to try and overwhelm them. Once you learn to manage aggro, this becomes a meaningless exercise in it.

But a truly challenging dungeon tests players' coordination/teamwork, combat skill, problem-solving ability, and ability to think and react under short and long-term pressure. At no time should such a dungeon ever be finishable by a single player.

Some options to create such challenges-

Monsters - Monsters provide an assortment of options for their implementation. They can challenge a player's ability to fight skillfully against AI (current use), coordinate combat efforts as a team (rarely an issue), they can be part of a puzzle (Sorrow's Furnace: Ice Golems), add short term pressure (quick combat decisions), or even long term pressure (delays with a timer running), in addition to adding an aspect of anti-soloability. An amount of versatile monsters can easily overcome any solo build.

Puzzles - Puzzles are problems presented to a player that the player must solve, either linearly with a pre-set solution, or they can be left open-ended. Puzzles can require a single person to solve and complete (Desert Teleporters), or require the use of multiple players acting in synchrony to solve (None existing. A mult-part puzzle requiring solving at the same time would be one possibility). Some puzzles incorporate monsters in order to add a dimension of combat challenge, while others use timers to generate artificial pressure. Puzzles are possibly the easiest trial to remove soloability with: multi-part puzzles can generate a need for more than one person. (Such as carrying and dropping 2 items in sync)

Party Splits - Party splits are a phenomena involving a point in a dungeon where your party must separate into 2 or more groups, smaller than the original, in order to complete an aspect of it. Party splits are almost always brought about through use of puzzles, though one can leave the decision open-ended by merely pressuring players into doing it (Such as the use of a timer, encouraging a split to complete more tasks simultaneously). Party splits can enhance the difficulty of a monster encounter, entirely eliminate soloability, and add short term pressure to form a decision regarding how the party should be split.

Timers - Timers generate an aspect of challenge on their own, creating either short or long-term pressure for players to complete a certain goal. However, they're most often used to compound the existing challenges. Examples are mentioned in other aspects.

Terrain/Map Locations - Terrain is somewhat of an oddity to discuss, as it almost never plays a direct role in any aspect of the game, other than controlling a player's movement options. However, terrain control should not be underestimated. It can add elements to aspects of gameplay. Location of monsters can alter the way combat is fought (behind a wall, only non-line of sight spells injure them; Arrows from higher up deal more damage). It can be used to encourage a party split. Forked one-way paths provide short term-pressure as a party decides which one to take.

Variability - Through use of a random generator, creating inconsistent spawning, obstacles, or the entire map, to cause a dungeon to never be the same twice. This pushes a dungeon away from becoming too stale, or too mechanical, such that a person becomes overly familiar with aspects of it. Variability is another aspect that creates no challenge on its own, but instead compounds the difficulty of others. It's also a very strong counter to solo builds and bots, as their primary basis is build upon tackling repetitive predictable patterns.

Rewards - For every good challenge, players often expect an equally good reward. What exactly a reward entails, and its value to a player is highly variable. Aside from what a player expects, rewards are a method of making the completion of a challenge all the more satisfying, and encouraging players to take challenges, rather than doing the same things again and again.

Reward Types:

Practical/Useful - Items, money, skills, or other bonuses that provide an advantage in-game over other players. When considering these, one should carefully balance their benefits in respect to players that have and do not have them. A game should never be balanced around loot that many players will never even see.

Aesthetics - Items or other bonuses that are used for appearances, rather than any practical benefit. These may include new styles of armor, weapon skins, or other aspects of character appearance customization. Holiday headgear is one such example of this.

Content - Unlocking additional in-game content. This is akin to the linear mission style of Chapter 1 (though accompanied with an alternate mode of game completion). Such a reward would likely unlock another dungeon or other such PvE area for exploration for the player.

Intangibles - Intangibles leave a player with little more to show for it other than memories and screenshots. Intangibles includes both the general thrill of having completed a challenge, but also other things like easter eggs, such as the murals of the GW Gods.

===
Sample dungeon challenges:

Race the Clock - Short term pressure at its most basic, a beat the clock challenge would require a player to run from Point A to Point B within a certain amount of time, with success hinging on that. Failure could be simply having to try again, or a party wipe. Alternately, there're numerous variations, such as killing certain monsters within a time frame.

One-Way Teleporter - A one-way teleporter is a great way to make a party split. Sending members to a new area without enabling them to come back. A party can control the way their party is split, this way, as well.

2-Part Boss - In going with the above, here's a sample boss made for use with party splitting:
6 Monsters: Phantom Masters 1+2, and Soul Puppets A-D
Each Phantom Master is located in a different room with 2 lettered Soul Puppets. Phantom Master 1 has Soul Puppets C and D, while Phantom Master 2 has Soul Puppet's A and B. Phantom Master 1 can not be damaged until Soul Puppets A and B are destroyed, and Phantom Master 2 can not be damaged until Soul Puppets C and D are destroyed. Both Phantom Masters have resurrection skills.

Thus, the performance of each group is tied into the performance of the other.

===
Now, as for how this is a suggestion rather than a lecture, aside from the initial suggestion of elite PvE dungeons:
Suggestions of challengs for dungeons built on the premises explained previously are welcome. That's how.

Anraeth · Mar 06, 2006, 10:23 PM // 22:23

/sign im also waiting on gw to incorporate voice chat for pvp.....

Across The Battle · Mar 06, 2006, 10:29 PM // 22:29

/signed

Very elaborate. I like the idea of adding more aspects to the game.

Yellow_lid · Mar 06, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Wow, finally something new... I like the idea of requiring more team orentation for Quests and Missions alike... Henchmen make things too boring...
Problem: Getting a team assembled that will actually work together could take hours. It may also end up elimintating alot of the younger, less team oriented players, by making it impossible for them to team with anyone.
Plus: It would take more effort and force players to become more flexible when working with skills and such, thus encouraging diversity (which is a good thing).
like I said, I like the idea, and it's original... congrats.
/signed

Allanon Dark · Mar 06, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Some of the things you mentioned have been implemented to a certain degree in the game already. In High Priest Alkar you have to split, one party to gather the stuff and one party (usually one person though) to watch over Alkar himself. While this doesn't really require much skill a lot of unskilled players tend to screw this up and it tends to go awry very fast.

The ability to clear the UW also requires much teamwork, skill, coordination and pure talent. Good UW teams take time to talk before a match so that the skills can be best coordinated so that you dont take skills too redundantly. For instance, I was in a guild group one time that let me guest on their Vent server and we talked about what skills to take, who was calling and so on. We ended up dying in the Bone Pits but managed to clear everything else prior to that. That was my best PUG ever and it did use a great amount of coordination and teamwork. We did have to use some recovery skills (something that is in pitiful supply) to get as far as we did but it all turned out ok.

Anyway, to get to the point of the thread...

/signed

Fantus · Mar 06, 2006, 11:04 PM // 23:04

wonderful idea!

... just don't place the entrance to those dungeons in the "we can't enter there because we don't have favor area", please.

Nevin · Mar 06, 2006, 11:07 PM // 23:07

/signed